On Christmas Day, Disney released their new Pixar movie Soul on their acclaimed streaming service Disney+ at no additional cost. Breaking barriers even before it was shown to the public, Soul features the first Black lead in a Pixar movie, and the first African-American lead in a Disney movie since 2009. In addition to receiving lots of praise, the movie has also been criticized for some of its choices. In light of the positive and negative responses to the movie, Features Editor Sam Tarter sat down with seniors Albert Harrold, Zak Stevenson, and Ocean Okohson-Reb—all of whom are African-American musicians who personally relate to Soul’s main character Joe Gardner—to discuss what it was like to be represented in the new Pixar feature, for better or worse.

Sam Tarter (ST): Almost everything about this movie was monumental or groundbreaking: it was released on Disney+ at no additional cost, the first Disney+ original Pixar films, and one of the only movies that Disney didn’t delay due to the pandemic and actually let audiences see in 2020. But beyond that, it was also monumental for being the first African-American lead in a Disney or Pixar movie in 11 years since The Princess and the Frog in 2009. This one, however, was not a Black princess but a Black man in the lead. So what was it like to get that representation after all these years, not just with the characters being Black, but the lead being a Black man?

Albert Harrold (AH): I think it was really nice to see a more relatable story. He felt more like an everyday person, he didn't really feel like this person who relies a lot on fate, more down to earth. That was really great.

Ocean Okohson-Reb (OO): It is long overdue. Yes, very long overdue. But I am glad that they took the time to do it now and to do it as well as they did. Representation is something that these companies really struggle with, so I'm glad that they made the decision early on and in the process of putting it together to involve people of color behind the scenes. I feel like that's a really important thing when you're trying to tell a story about a person of color.

Zak Stevenson (ZS): It is definitely long overdue. I feel like there are a lot of sub-roles that Black people play or they just take part in those minor things, but like if I was a seven or eight year old boy, seeing that on the screen, especially being played by Jamie Foxx, I would be like, ‘you know what, there is no limits to what I can do … no limit to the life that has been set for me. I can do what I want in the best form that I can,’ and I think that was really good. For me, I'm glad that it's not even a story about race, it's a family story. It's a really good story just for anybody to watch. And I'm glad that Pixar has made that step because the majority of America is white, and whatever you can sell the majority of us is going to sell. A lot of people get uncomfortable seeing someone of color in the leading role, so I'm glad that they said, ‘you know what, we're going to do what we think is right, and it doesn't really matter about what sells or what people like or don't like, we're doing this because it shows a lot of representation.’

ST: What was it like to be represented, not just as a Black man, but as a Black musician through the character of Joe Gardner?

AH: That was actually pretty awesome. I have family in the industry, so I know people who know a lot of actors in the movie. So that was all amazing. The music was amazing … I thoroughly enjoyed it. The thought they put into it was great, with a very nice message. And I think the part where they kind of talked about finding that thing that just like, brings you into a whole different reality and motivates you, and that state of mind where you find that drive … it’s powerful. (For me) that’s as an actor, as a singer, as a songwriter, as a musician. Just being in that place or state of mind is just a wonderful feeling. And it's kind of a feeling that you can't really put to words, but this film really did a great job of putting it into words and putting it into something that you could recognize.

OO: I felt represented in a way that I'd never felt before in a movie. Especially through personal culture as a jazz musician. It was great to see somebody like me on screen. Having that same experience, when you're ‘in the zone,’ that's kind of like musician’s high. Whenever you're doing something, anything that you love, really, and when you feel that lightness, that freedom … that was just a great thing to see portrayed in the movie.

ZS: I'm a Black pianist myself, and jazz really speaks to me. I think they did a really good job, especially towards the end, when (Joe) was kind of going through the motions of the story, and then he kind of got hit with the fact that, like, ‘oh, maybe piano is not my spark. Maybe my piano playing is not really what I'm here to do. Maybe it's just something that I'm good at.’ That kind of hit home for me because I was always thinking about how music is everything to me. I thought that it's going to be that one thing in my life that I'm going to do, so the movie made me think, like, ‘Yo, maybe that's something that I'm in love with, but it may not be my purpose.’ I think that was really, really good and it was especially personal. My passion is not usually my purpose, but my purpose can also be my passion.

ST: While the film score wasn’t, the actual Jazz and Soul music that was made for and featured in the movie was written, composed, performed—essentially 100 percent made by Black artists and musicians. Did you think that the music, and the way it was showcased and implemented into the story of the movie, was one of the better parts of Soul?

OO: I'd have to say, yes, they really did still stay true to the essence of jazz, especially with the main character’s improvisation. 

ZS: I do believe that just the composition, the execution and everything like that, that was really, really, really spot on. I don't think they could have done a better job. I think it was smart that they got someone who isn't just in the entertainment industry, but they got Jamie Foxx who is actually a musician.

AH: I loved the improvisations. I loved all the soloing. It was all just very soulful playing overall—no pun intended. But it was kind of more of that basic jazz that we are used to and that was kind of different because historically, when white people took over, they kind of took the soul out of it. So yeah, I think that it really brought back memories of that and just evoked some real emotions.

ST: While the movie is getting quite a bit of praise by critics and it’s winning many awards, it has also gained some backlash and been the subject of some forms of controversy. The movie was written by three men: Kemp Powers, Mike Jones, and Pete Doctor, the last of which is a Pixar alum. Not only was Doctor the only white man to pen the script, he was also the one in the director’s chair. Do you think this was a good idea on Pixar’s part? Or should they have given the opportunity for Black directors—especially less experienced or lesser known ones—to tell the first Pixar story with a Black lead?

OO: For how well the movie turned out, I can't really be mad about who was chosen to be the director. Yeah, I see the problem, but the real problem could lie in the future if they continue to give these leading directing roles to white people for stories about people of color. Hopefully Disney and Pixar continue to make movies that include or feature people of color, but they do need to strongly consider giving a Black man or woman the leading roles and creativity of a Black movie. I understand, though, for it being the first time and it being this big thing, if they give it to a surefire director because they don't want to mess it up … absolutely, but there's something there that I hope does not become a pattern.

AH: This is an industry that is notoriously hard for Black people to succeed. It’s really hard for Black women and Black men to succeed as both directors and talent. So this could’ve been a big opportunity for a Black director to step in, and that opportunity to me feels like it was taken from a Black director that could have done an amazing job on this.

ZS: You know The Princess and the Frog was also directed by two white men, but the quality of it was still amazing. So yeah, I think I think (Pete Doctor) did a really good job. I feel like the backlash is a bit much for me, just because it wasn't like he said anything racist or anything like that. He's definitely a very culturally well-rounded individual. But yeah, I think the fact that this is the second time Disney has done this …  I don’t think they or many people realize that there are more than enough people outside of Tyler Perry that can direct something for Black people (laughs). Because, you know, you can be the most well-rounded individual in the world, but you just don't have the Black experience. You don't have that. That thing that just runs in our blood. And I don't know what it is, but it's just what we have. And not to say that he didn’t do a good job, but it could have been a lot more authentic if it came from the direction of a Black mind.

ST: You mentioned white directors on The Princess and the Frog and now this being the second instance of this for a Disney movie, but this isn’t the only time something has happened again for a Disney movie with a Black lead. In The Princess and the Frog we have the main character, Princess Tiana, transformed into a frog for a majority of the movie. In Soul, not only is Joe portrayed as a blue soul for most of the movie, but he even gets transformed into a cat and a white voice actor (Tina Fey) is voicing a Black character for a large portion of the movie. Of course we aren’t saying Disney or Pixar are racist or anything, but do you think this was the right choice? Or was the execution off? What would you have done differently?

OO: This is another one of those pattern things that keeps happening. I understand the concept of the movie was, you know, souls, and I guess that is some sort of justification for the kind of actions that they took in portraying Joe. I understand that some people did take a lot of issue with him being blue when he became a soul and especially because he spent so much of the movie looking like that. But I think that you can also come to the conclusion that being Black is not just your skin. Being Black is you as your shared heritage, your culture, and even when Joe was a soul … me being a person of color, I could still see the Black in him. I could still see that heritage, that culture, that connection that we have because of our pasts. So just that's just how I see it. I'd rather not see Pixar do this again. I'd rather them not keep continuing this trope of conforming to or appealing to white people or audiences in general by kind of changing the Black character and making them more accessible. But I can understand and I can still connect with Joe even over that hurdle.

ZS: It’s funny…  we discussed this in African American History. So if I go up to Ocean and tell him that he's Black, that's the color of his skin, it tells me nothing about who he is. We’ve come to a point in America where being Black is not just who you are, it’s what you are. It doesn't give me anything. It doesn't tell me that Ocean is also very big on racial and social justice. It doesn’t tell me that Albert is a musician. It doesn't tell me anything about you. It just tells me that the color of your skin is classified as Black and that being African American is just a thing. There's no cultural or character traits, you get nothing from knowing that. The African-American culture that we've had to cultivate in America …  I feel like you could see that even though he was a blue soul, and I think that's a good thing. You have that in Jamie Foxx because he just has that in him. I get that the whole purpose of the movie was to be a soul. I think there could have been just a little bit more time of him as a human, as a Black man, as Joe. The only time that he was back in his body is when he got brought back to life towards the end. Yeah, last time his body was used by him was when he fell in that manhole. And then Tina Fey was in his body, and only at the end, at the very end of the movie was he back in his body. I think that that is something that can be turned the wrong way, and I think personally, I think they could have done a better job with how they executed that. But it's really not about me walking around with brown on my skin. It's more about who and what makes me up instead of what covers my bones and my muscles and everything like that. So I feel like I'm a bit 50/50 on that, but like I said, I see what I see where they were going, but I think the execution could have been a little bit better.

AH: I like what everybody said, and I think that Zak made a good point, but I'd like to kind of diverge from that. Our skin color and waking up every day and kind of coming to terms with who we are and loving ourselves because of who we are ... loving ourselves because of our brown skin and our tightly coiled hair and our large noses … loving those aspects is a big part of who we are, especially in America. I think that when a movie and a movie company fails to ever portray us as who we are drawn out through a full movie that kind of gives the impression that there's something wrong with who we are. Yes, Tiana was a Black girl, but only for like 17 minutes. And we even have it with Brother Bear and The Emperor's New Groove. Every time a person of color is portrayed in a Disney movie, they have to be transformed to something for it to be good enough for the audience or to be whatever is enough to be in a movie.

ST: Looking back on this movie today, and of course as people look back on it in the years to come, what do you think will be the biggest takeaway for audiences and Disney/Pixar in terms of representation and correcting the mistakes made by Soul?

OO: I think that Disney/Pixar have stepped in the right direction … and they have to keep taking those steps and learn from the mistakes of this movie, and hopefully the next African-American feature, or just a feature of any person of color or any other marginalized group, will be better and more authentic and genuine than what’s come before.